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Sportshoopla Top 25 Week 3 Discussion Thread

ericd7633

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So you truly believe Wake Forest is one of the 10 best defensive teams in the nation this season, no doubt?

I have no doubt they're a very good defensive unit. They've only given up 27 points this season and 10 of them were garbage points in blowout wins. Would I call them elite, probably not, do I think they'll be considered top 15, yeah.
 

Across The Field

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I'm not going to say our defense is better than Penn State but as been mentioned points allowed isn't the best metric.

You gotta remember offensive starters weren't the only players pulled by the middle of the 3rd quarter in each of our games. We gifted Tulsa 17 points to Tulsa in the first half of the opener (bobbled punt return and fumble) which wasn't on our defense. The other two games they shut the other team down early and by the time South Alabama or Pitt tried to get in a offensive rhythm the game was out of hand.

Penn State didn't put Pitt away until the secould half. Granted they have taken care of business with the other two but Oklahoma State looked better on the road against a common opponent Penn State had at home.

It both take care of business the rest of the way it won't matter but for now the only measurement we have is against a common opponent.
Fair points. That said, you don't just jump teams all around every single week based on 1 game, and you especially don't jump them around because of the transitive property.
 

4down20

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Again I will ask how in the fuck anyone has Penn State ranked ahead of Oklahoma State.

Does anyone pay attention to the games that have been played thusfar?

There is a direct connecting opponent, I don't get it.
View attachment 166479

I'm not a believer. Also I don't think comparing the Pitt game straight up is really fair, as Oklahoma St got a team that just played the other in comparision the week before. And I did watch that game, or atleast the 1st half anyway.

I thought OKST was over-ranked last year due to playing a weak schedule(#58), while Penn St(#14) had a much tougher schedule and better results. As such, I'm giving Penn St the benefit of the doubt and remain skeptical about Oklahoma St until I see more.
 

4down20

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your record says who you are.

That's not even close to being true. Especially at this point in the season.

The idea that all 8-5 teams are equal is the entire reason win% based SoS sucks.
 

Edisto_Tiger

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Which is 1/3 of the way....
I should have said that we are only 3 GAMES into the season. And of those 3 games, most teams have only played 1 with any real meaning, therefore I am not inclined to get involved with some of the drama.

:suds:
 

tnapucco

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I should have said that we are only 3 GAMES into the season. And of those 3 games, most teams have only played 1 with any real meaning, therefore I am not inclined to get involved with some of the drama.

:suds:
I hear you.

But when you have a common opponent between two teams, it's not that great of a "jump" to ascertain team rankings within a poll structure...especially when the games in question are in two successive weeks.

I don't think anyone, with this data available, would with seriousness rank Team A over Team B when Team B beat the common opponent at the common opponent's stadium with a greater point margin knowing full well that Team A played the common opponent at Team A's stadium and didn't achieve as great a point differential in their win.

This blows away "eye tests", data carried over from previous seasons and most definitely regional preference.

Logic. I haz it.
 

Across The Field

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I have no doubt they're a very good defensive unit. They've only given up 27 points this season and 10 of them were garbage points in blowout wins. Would I call them elite, probably not, do I think they'll be considered top 15, yeah.
"They'll be considered" is not the same as "I personally believe".
 

ericd7633

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"They'll be considered" is not the same as "I personally believe".

I think they will be a top 15 defensive unit. It's not like it means anything to you though because if they aren't in the top 15 in ppg against, nothing else will matter.
 

Chewbaccer

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I agree. But I think Miss St. has an advantage at QB and Head Coach, which is why I think it could be a toss up.

It is a toss up. Eason will be out again this week, and while I think Fromm will wind up being the better B of the two, he's still very raw right now and has been lucky some true freshman mistakes hasn't really hurt the team too much yet(Eason didn't get away with any mistakes last season), and as weird as it is to say, I think he's a bit too confident. You can't fit a basketball into a marble sized hole.

But if the defense can prevent Fitzgerald from having a big game on the ground like they did with Wimbush and ND, I like our chances, if not, I probably won't be a happy drunk come Saturday.
 

outofyourmind

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When Florida State has a bigger sample size they will be brought back into the discussion.
I know it's not their fault that the Hurricane fucked things up but that's tough shit, and on the other hand it's not fair to other teams who have actually won games.

We saw an overmatched FSU team get beat by, I guess, a good Alabama team.
 

Across The Field

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I think they will be a top 15 defensive unit. It's not like it means anything to you though because if they aren't in the top 15 in ppg against, nothing else will matter.
It doesn't mean anything to me because this is frickin Wake Forest, a team who had one decent defensive performance all of last year (which still involved FSU gaining 442 yards and 27 first downs) and hasn't played anyone of note so far this year.
 

ericd7633

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It doesn't mean anything to me because this is frickin Wake Forest, a team who had one decent defensive performance all of last year (which still involved FSU gaining 442 yards and 27 first downs) and hasn't played anyone of note so far this year.

That's not even remotely close to being true. Also, I'm not sure why you want to judge a team on just a couple of games? Bama gave up 35 to Clemson last year, if we are going to judge their defense off of one game we would come to the assumption that their defense isn't any good.
 

Across The Field

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That's not even remotely close to being true. Also, I'm not sure why you want to judge a team on just a couple of games? Bama gave up 35 to Clemson last year, if we are going to judge their defense off of one game we would come to the assumption that their defense isn't any good.
Forgive me for not going gaga over strong defensive outings against teams like Boston College and Tulane. Bama gave up 35 to Clemson in a high energy national title game. Extremely different than an arbitrary Saturday afternoon in the fall when they're barely trying. Wake gave up 35 to Clemson, but 28 of those points came in the first 17 minutes of the game. Not the same.
 

ericd7633

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Forgive me for not going gaga over strong defensive outings against teams like Boston College and Tulane. Bama gave up 35 to Clemson in a high energy national title game. Extremely different than an arbitrary Saturday afternoon in the fall when they're barely trying. Wake gave up 35 to Clemson, but 28 of those points came in the first 17 minutes of the game. Not the same.

Again, I'm not saying they were an elite defensive team last year, but they were good. And they seem to at least be the same, if not slightly better. And sure they haven't played anybody, but neither has Penn State and that didn't stop you from proclaiming them an elite defense this season.
 

Across The Field

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Again, I'm not saying they were an elite defensive team last year, but they were good. And they seem to at least be the same, if not slightly better. And sure they haven't played anybody, but neither has Penn State and that didn't stop you from proclaiming them an elite defense this season.
They were decent for Wake Forest. They put up decent numbers against shitty teams and didn't look good against most of the offenses they faced that had a pulse.

That said, right now they're top 10 of your efficiency rankings, which would mean they're elite if that's what you're going by. I'm saying Penn State is because they've looked downright dominant. They've pitched two shutouts so far. I know Akron and Ga State aren't powerhouses, but you keep bringing up how teams score in garbage time as if you can just dismiss it. Well, teams aren't even doing that on Penn State.
 

ericd7633

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They were decent for Wake Forest. They put up decent numbers against shitty teams and didn't look good against most of the offenses they faced that had a pulse.

That said, right now they're top 10 of your efficiency rankings, which would mean they're elite if that's what you're going by. I'm saying Penn State is because they've looked downright dominant. They've pitched two shutouts so far. I know Akron and Ga State aren't powerhouses, but you keep bringing up how teams score in garbage time as if you can just dismiss it. Well, teams aren't even doing that on Penn State.

Wake was both top 25 in efficiency and ppg against. They were actually slightly better in ppg against. They were a good defensive unit.

And you should dismiss garbage time points. You think if Ga. State makes the FG with like 5 seconds left I'm going to hold that against PSU's defense? No, I think that's particularly dumb. If you're going to say Penn State has been downright dominant so far, you have to think the same about Wake Forest. I give props to PSU for shutting out Akron and Ga. State, but I don't look at that performance any differently than I do with Wake's against Presbyterian even though they gave up 7 points, because it was late in the 4th qtr.
 

Across The Field

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Wake was both top 25 in efficiency and ppg against. They were actually slightly better in ppg against. They were a good defensive unit.

And you should dismiss garbage time points. You think if Ga. State makes the FG with like 5 seconds left I'm going to hold that against PSU's defense? No, I think that's particularly dumb. If you're going to say Penn State has been downright dominant so far, you have to think the same about Wake Forest. I give props to PSU for shutting out Akron and Ga. State, but I don't look at that performance any differently than I do with Wake's against Presbyterian even though they gave up 7 points, because it was late in the 4th qtr.
That's the point - they didn't. I find it to be very impressive when a team has their 2nd/3rd stringers in on defense and they still hold teams out of the end zone. This is why I feel like PPG is an important factor. Sure, garbage time points don't necessarily mean a team's defense is bad, but when you're shutting teams out, that speaks to talented depth. PSU undoubtedly has it.

When comparing the Pitt game vs. OK St. against them, PSU's defense looked more impressive. Pitt had 3 TDs on the board by the end of the 3rd quarter vs. OK St., while they didn't even find the end zone vs. PSU until 5 minutes into the 4th quarter. That's where this originally stems from. If you ask me who has the better defense based on common opponent, I say PSU without a doubt.
 
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