• Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

Athlon's B1G 10 All-Conference Team

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Just because you can coach your position doesn't mean the recruits brought in are going to pick it up and be able to use it on the field.

Contrary to your belief -- measureables mean very little if a player struggles with the advanced techniques needed to be successful in college and especially the NFL.

It is no different than UM and their QB position in the past 7-8 years. Devin Gardner was the #1 dual threat QB out of HS. Shane Morris had an absolute cannon and was faster than Gardner. It isn't like the QB coaches forgot how to coach up a QB and in Morris's case, it isn't as if Harbaugh forgot how to coach up a QB.

Some players figure it out, some players have all the talent in the world, but can't figure it out. It is why the best teams in college are the teams who bring in the most talent. For every recruit who doesn't pan out, they have one equally as talented waiting to take their spot. It is why the top coaches are cut throat on the roster moves, because the more recruits you bring in each year, the better chance you have to hit on elite recruits.
The difference is, you guy haven't put out a good QB in a decade or so, and that's being generous (Henne). How do Herman and Smith churn out guys like Devin Smith, Michael Thomas, Braxton Miller, and then once Herman leaves our WRs suddenly suck? Don't you see what the common denominator there is? When your play-caller runs the same bland pass plays that are easy to gameplan for, your WRs are going to look bad. It's about design, and also about timing. Herman knew how to run the right plays to expose a defense at the right time; Beck ran the same plays and had no idea how to make adjustments.

If you don't believe me, just wait until this year and see how our passing game looks compared to last year. Guys like Bin Victor, Parris Campbell, Terry McLaurin, Austin Mack, Johnnie Dixon, etc. were all on the team last year and I guarantee most, if not all, will look significantly better this year with a coherent passing attack led by a superior OC.
 

ericd7633

Well-Known Member
18,113
3,145
293
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The difference is, you guy haven't put out a good QB in a decade or so, and that's being generous (Henne). How do Herman and Smith churn out guys like Devin Smith, Michael Thomas, Braxton Miller, and then once Herman leaves our WRs suddenly suck? Don't you see what the common denominator there is? When your play-caller runs the same bland pass plays that are easy to gameplan for, your WRs are going to look bad. It's about design, and also about timing. Herman knew how to run the right plays to expose a defense at the right time; Beck ran the same plays and had no idea how to make adjustments.

If you don't believe me, just wait until this year and see how our passing game looks compared to last year. Guys like Bin Victor, Parris Campbell, Terry McLaurin, Austin Mack, Johnnie Dixon, etc. were all on the team last year and I guarantee most, if not all, will look significantly better this year with a coherent passing attack led by a superior OC.

If a player has enough talent, he shouldn't need a schematic advantage to get open.
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
If a player has enough talent, he shouldn't need a schematic advantage to get open.
Then why even have OC's in the first place? If it's impossible for an OC to help develop a player's talent and realize his potential, seems like a huge waste of money.
 

7Samurai13

Funniest SH member
28,002
5,120
533
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 581.82
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Then why even have OC's in the first place? If it's impossible for an OC to help develop a player's talent and realize his potential, seems like a huge waste of money.
Or all coaches in general.
 

TrustMeIamRight

Well-Known Member
14,831
1,716
173
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 28.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Ummm you had shitty coaches, as evidenced by the lack of results with two top ten classes that miraculously became draftable when Harbaugh arrived, and Gardner was gone before Harbaugh got there so how exactly was he supposed to "coach him up"?

I know Gardner was gone, which is why I only mentioned Harbaugh with Shane Morris.

Prior to Harbaugh arriving -- the OC/QB coach was Al Borges. He had been OC at Oregon, UCLA, Indiana and Auburn before coming to UM. So it isn't as if he didn't know what he was doing.

High school recruits just don't pan out sometimes, no matter how much coaching up you do. It is why getting full recruiting classes each year is so important, because it gives you a bigger margin for error.
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I know Gardner was gone, which is why I only mentioned Harbaugh with Shane Morris.

Prior to Harbaugh arriving -- the OC/QB coach was Al Borges. He had been OC at Oregon, UCLA, Indiana and Auburn before coming to UM. So it isn't as if he didn't know what he was doing.

High school recruits just don't pan out sometimes, no matter how much coaching up you do. It is why getting full recruiting classes each year is so important, because it gives you a bigger margin for error.
To be fair, Morris was a horrible prospect. I saw that coming from a mile away. His high school stats were marginal, but he just blew up at the summer camps. It didn't take much to see his bust coming easily.
 

ericd7633

Well-Known Member
18,113
3,145
293
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Then why even have OC's in the first place? If it's impossible for an OC to help develop a player's talent and realize his potential, seems like a huge waste of money.

Were talking about two different things. Developing a players skill set and implementing a specific game plan are two different things. If you have enough talent, you shouldn't need a specific game plan to make you look good. As an example Demaryius Thomas was a 1st round talent playing in a triple option offense.
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Were talking about two different things. Developing a players skill set and implementing a specific game plan are two different things. If you have enough talent, you shouldn't need a specific game plan to make you look good. As an example Demaryius Thomas was a 1st round talent playing in a triple option offense.
In his final year at GT, he had 1154 yards and 8 TDs while being 6'3", 225. It's not like he wasn't used. He's also a very rare talent.
 

TrustMeIamRight

Well-Known Member
14,831
1,716
173
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 28.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The difference is, you guy haven't put out a good QB in a decade or so, and that's being generous (Henne). How do Herman and Smith churn out guys like Devin Smith, Michael Thomas, Braxton Miller, and then once Herman leaves our WRs suddenly suck? Don't you see what the common denominator there is? When your play-caller runs the same bland pass plays that are easy to gameplan for, your WRs are going to look bad. It's about design, and also about timing. Herman knew how to run the right plays to expose a defense at the right time; Beck ran the same plays and had no idea how to make adjustments.

If you don't believe me, just wait until this year and see how our passing game looks compared to last year. Guys like Bin Victor, Parris Campbell, Terry McLaurin, Austin Mack, Johnnie Dixon, etc. were all on the team last year and I guarantee most, if not all, will look significantly better this year with a coherent passing attack led by a superior OC.

A WR can either get open or he can't. An OC can't run the routes for the WR's. OSU WR's struggled to get any separation against teams with quality DB's. It is no different than when Urban left Florida. He did so when he had a couple classes where top ranked recruits didn't pan out. It is why fans gave him such a hard time when he came up with the excuses to leave. It isn't like he all of sudden he couldn't recruit elite talent -- it was the elite talent didn't pan out.

It is no different than when NFL teams draft a stud in college and he flops. It isn't that they can't coach him up or they forgot how to coach. Some players struggle with the quality and speed of play.
 

ericd7633

Well-Known Member
18,113
3,145
293
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
In his final year at GT, he had 1154 yards and 8 TDs while being 6'3", 225. It's not like he wasn't used. He's also a very rare talent.

Sure but he was certainly under utilized big time for being the type of talent he is/was because of the system. My point is as a WR you can certainly show your talent/worth even with shitty coaching/system.
 

TrustMeIamRight

Well-Known Member
14,831
1,716
173
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 28.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Were talking about two different things. Developing a players skill set and implementing a specific game plan are two different things. If you have enough talent, you shouldn't need a specific game plan to make you look good. As an example Demaryius Thomas was a 1st round talent playing in a triple option offense.

Agree 100%. Position coaches are responsible for developing a players skill set, the OC's job is to come up with a game plan for them to be successful.

If your WR's cannot get any separation -- it makes the OC's job extremely difficult.
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
A WR can either get open or he can't. An OC can't run the routes for the WR's. OSU WR's struggled to get any separation against teams with quality DB's. It is no different than when Urban left Florida. He did so when he had a couple classes where top ranked recruits didn't pan out. It is why fans gave him such a hard time when he came up with the excuses to leave. It isn't like he all of sudden he couldn't recruit elite talent -- it was the elite talent didn't pan out.

It is no different than when NFL teams draft a stud in college and he flops. It isn't that they can't coach him up or they forgot how to coach. Some players struggle with the quality and speed of play.
So you're honestly telling me that you don't expect any of the WRs at OSU to improve under Kevin Wilson this year then? The guys like Victor, Campbell, Mack, Dixon who were all on the team last year under Beck and had sub-par years, you don't think any of them will improve?

Again, I use the Parris Campbell example. He's being mocked widely as a first round pick next year. This is a guy who had 13 catches for 121 yards and 0 TDs last year. He's gonna have the same QB throwing the ball behind the same OL. Why do you think so many people think he's going to blow up this year? Only one thing has changed from last year...
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Sure but he was certainly under utilized big time for being the type of talent he is/was because of the system. My point is as a WR you can certainly show your talent/worth even with shitty coaching/system.
There were no Demaryius Thomases on the Buckeyes last year. There are few, if any, in college football right now in general. I'm not saying the WRs on OSU last year were elite, so it's not really a fair comparison.

What I'm saying is, having a good OC can change things dramatically. You guys continue to discount the difference in how OSU played under Herman and then under Beck from 2014 to 2015 despite having many of the same studs. Look at the dramatic change in the offense when Urban took over playcalling after the MSU game in 2015. They had come off a 3-game stretch where they averaged 23ppg against Minnesota, Illinois, and #9 MSU. He took over and they scored 44 and 42 against two top 10 teams after. Playcalling makes a huge difference in how effective an offense is.

If Kevin Wilson comes in this year with the same guys that were on the team last year (assuming our true freshmen WRs don't come in and take over) and he completely bombs and our passing game doesn't improve, I'll eat my words. I just truly don't see that happening.
 

ericd7633

Well-Known Member
18,113
3,145
293
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
There were no Demaryius Thomases on the Buckeyes last year. There are few, if any, in college football right now in general. I'm not saying the WRs on OSU last year were elite, so it's not really a fair comparison.

What I'm saying is, having a good OC can change things dramatically. You guys continue to discount the difference in how OSU played under Herman and then under Beck from 2014 to 2015 despite having many of the same studs. Look at the dramatic change in the offense when Urban took over playcalling after the MSU game in 2015. They had come off a 3-game stretch where they averaged 23ppg against Minnesota, Illinois, and #9 MSU. He took over and they scored 44 and 42 against two top 10 teams after. Playcalling makes a huge difference in how effective an offense is.

If Kevin Wilson comes in this year with the same guys that were on the team last year (assuming our true freshmen WRs don't come in and take over) and he completely bombs and our passing game doesn't improve, I'll eat my words. I just truly don't see that happening.

Yes, play calling can improve an offense from an efficiency stand point. It won't make the players more talented though. If they can only get open because of some schematic advantage, that doesn't make them all of the sudden more talented. If you're entering into your 3rd or 4th year and haven't shown anything, odds are you won't magically show it, even with a switch of offenses.
 

Across The Field

Oaky Afterbirth
25,920
5,536
533
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Hoopla Cash
$ 24,656.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Yes, play calling can improve an offense from an efficiency stand point. It won't make the players more talented though. If they can only get open because of some schematic advantage, that doesn't make them all of the sudden more talented. If you're entering into your 3rd or 4th year and haven't shown anything, odds are you won't magically show it, even with a switch of offenses.
So explain why people think Parris Campbell and his 13 career catches is a first round prospect for next year.
 

ericd7633

Well-Known Member
18,113
3,145
293
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
So explain why people think Parris Campbell and his 13 career catches is a first round prospect for next year.

I have no explanation other than he won't end up being that.
 

TrustMeIamRight

Well-Known Member
14,831
1,716
173
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 28.63
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
So you're honestly telling me that you don't expect any of the WRs at OSU to improve under Kevin Wilson this year then? The guys like Victor, Campbell, Mack, Dixon who were all on the team last year under Beck and had sub-par years, you don't think any of them will improve?

Again, I use the Parris Campbell example. He's being mocked widely as a first round pick next year. This is a guy who had 13 catches for 121 yards and 0 TDs last year. He's gonna have the same QB throwing the ball behind the same OL. Why do you think so many people think he's going to blow up this year? Only one thing has changed from last year...

I'm not saying you won't have quality WR's. I'm saying a year in a college strength program and a year working with the position coach will do wonders for all players. How that translates onto the field is anyone's guess.

And mock drafts are nothing more than fodder for fans, especially at this point. Last year, Noah Brown was being lauded as a 1st round talent and he almost went undrafted. It is like Rashan Gary being projected to the All-Big 1st team DE, even though he was a backup all last year.

Until they show it on the field -- it is nothing more than educated guesses.
 
Top