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The NBA rookies Thread

Mecca

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Well, it's not like he starts every game with 10 points.
I mean, those 17 points don't just fall automatically for him.....

Even with the horrid FT%, his TS% and eFG% are better than Mitchell's.

It's been awhile, but I think Simmons only has competition with point in the paint from Giannis, which is nice company.

Regardless, it's in the hands of the US and Canadian sportswriters/broadcasters, so it could come down to whatever game they watched last and remember most about the player.
Yeah, I think Donovan gets a lot of play with the media because of his size and expectations.

He wasn't supposed to be.......THIS.

The Jazz were supposed to be shipwrecked.

If they pull out the 8th seed, in a brutal Western Conference race, it could very well come down to the last game seen.
 

Mebert

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Well, it's not like he starts every game with 10 points.
I mean, those 17 points don't just fall automatically for him.....

Even with the horrid FT%, his TS% and eFG% are better than Mitchell's.

It's been awhile, but I think Simmons only has competition with point in the paint from Giannis, which is nice company.

Regardless, it's in the hands of the US and Canadian sportswriters/broadcasters, so it could come down to whatever game they watched last and remember most about the player.

Not all shots are equal either. Most of Simmons shots come from the flow of the offense when his defender has to go somewhere else to help. Mitchells come after he has broken down his defender and then avoided help defense in the paint. It is good for Simmons to pick up points in a smart way, but it is a luxury Mitchell lacks. I think that Mitchell TS% is nearly identical to Simmons Shows how good he is at this point.
 

Mecca

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Not all shots are equal either. Most of Simmons shots come from the flow of the offense when his defender has to go somewhere else to help. Mitchells come after he has broken down his defender and then avoided help defense in the paint. It is good for Simmons to pick up points in a smart way, but it is a luxury Mitchell lacks. I think that Mitchell TS% is nearly identical to Simmons Shows how good he is at this point.
You make me extremely happy...lol
 

flyerhawk

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They are asked to do different things.

Ben is the pg.

Donovan plays next to Rubio, who is a pass first what?

POINT GUARD.

Ditto for Gobert with the defensive numbers and boards.

He cleans up a lot of messes.

So, I'm less concerned by his defensive rating, assists or boards.


If you get a second to watch this video, I think you will enjoy it.

It perfectly illustrates my point, while completely blowing it to Shit at the same time.....lol



All fair points.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you believe that scoring is what matters or whether their overall impact on the game matters. You can make good arguments either way.
 

flyerhawk

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Not all shots are equal either. Most of Simmons shots come from the flow of the offense when his defender has to go somewhere else to help. Mitchells come after he has broken down his defender and then avoided help defense in the paint. It is good for Simmons to pick up points in a smart way, but it is a luxury Mitchell lacks. I think that Mitchell TS% is nearly identical to Simmons Shows how good he is at this point.

But it should also be pointed out that Donovan Mitchell was just a guy until Gobert came back. Without Gobert this was a cellar dweller team.
 

Mebert

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But it should also be pointed out that Donovan Mitchell was just a guy until Gobert came back. Without Gobert this was a cellar dweller team.

Absolutely, Mitchell is not good enough to carry a team, and Gobert is hands down the best player there. I think in 2-3 years Mitchell will be good enough to carry a team, but that is not really relevant for a ROY discussion.

Mitchell also make me depressed to watch, he does everything that I am still waiting for Wiggins to do. Those play styles are near identical and watching the other teams guy have the cutthroat mentality hurts me deep in the feelings.
 

Sparhawk

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Not all shots are equal either. Most of Simmons shots come from the flow of the offense when his defender has to go somewhere else to help. Mitchells come after he has broken down his defender and then avoided help defense in the paint. It is good for Simmons to pick up points in a smart way, but it is a luxury Mitchell lacks. I think that Mitchell TS% is nearly identical to Simmons Shows how good he is at this point.

I would disagree.

TS% and eFG% take into account volume of 3s, 3P%, FTs, and FT%.
It shows how efficient Simmons is given his lack of outside shot and horrid FT shooting.
He could drastically improve his numbers by hitting 70% at the free throw line.

Will Mitchell improve upon his 84% from the line? Maybe.
He's already a league average 3P shooter, so maybe he can someday get to 40%.
And maybe he can improve his shot selection to be more efficient.

Mitchell deserves credit for being the guy and taking high leverage shots.

That being said, they are both fantastic rooks who should be anchoring their team for an easy decade.
Utah and the Sixers both have that international flair, so I look forward to seeing how these teams progress.
 

flyerhawk

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Absolutely, Mitchell is not good enough to carry a team, and Gobert is hands down the best player there. I think in 2-3 years Mitchell will be good enough to carry a team, but that is not really relevant for a ROY discussion.

Agree completely. But I have seen some folks argue that Mitchell is a one man show in Dallas whereas Simmons has Embiid to cover for him. I don't think that is entirely accurate.

Mitchell also make me depressed to watch, he does everything that I am still waiting for Wiggins to do. Those play styles are near identical and watching the other teams guy have the cutthroat mentality hurts me deep in the feelings.

Wiggins never established the right level of aggression. He just doesn't have that killer instinct.
 

Mecca

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Agree completely. But I have seen some folks argue that Mitchell is a one man show in Dallas whereas Simmons has Embiid to cover for him. I don't think that is entirely accurate.



Wiggins never established the right level of aggression. He just doesn't have that killer instinct.
Mitchell is the go to guy in Utah.

Simmons is the beta in Philly.

That is indisputable.

Here you go again twisting words because you feel defensive.

Come on, Dude.

Be better than that.
 
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flyerhawk

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Mitchell is the go to guy in Utah.

Simmons is the beta in Philly.

That is indisputable.

Here you go again twisting words because you feel defensive.

Come on, Dude.

Be better than that.

I'm not defensive. FFS, I hate when people do that shit. Offering a counter point is not being defensive. It's called a discussion.

It is UNDENIABLE that the Jazz were a bad team with Mitchell but without Gobert. Once Gobert comes back they INSTANTLY become a much better team. Donovan Mitchell also became a much better player.

Donovan Mitchell is the go to guy in Utah because Gobert does all the hard work down low.

If Gobert doesn't come back, Mitchell isn't being talked about in the same way right now. Conversely, if Embiid were to go down the Sixers would most likely not be a playoff contender and Simmons likely wouldn't be talked about in the same way.

Which is my point. Both players benefit from a huge contributor on their team.
 

Mecca

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I'm not defensive. FFS, I hate when people do that shit. Offering a counter point is not being defensive. It's called a discussion.

It is UNDENIABLE that the Jazz were a bad team with Mitchell but without Gobert. Once Gobert comes back they INSTANTLY become a much better team. Donovan Mitchell also became a much better player.

Donovan Mitchell is the go to guy in Utah because Gobert does all the hard work down low.

If Gobert doesn't come back, Mitchell isn't being talked about in the same way right now. Conversely, if Embiid were to go down the Sixers would most likely not be a playoff contender and Simmons likely wouldn't be talked about in the same way.

Which is my point. Both players benefit from a huge contributor on their team.
Quote the post where someone said Mtchell is a one man show.

You are the one who acts like a petulant, passive aggressive little girl when faced with a differing opinion.

I don't have to dramatize your statements to strengthen my position.
 

flyerhawk

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Quote the post where someone said Mtchell is a one man show.

You are the one who acts like a petulant, passive aggressive little girl when faced with a differing opinion.

I don't have to dramatize your statements to strengthen my position.

JFC. You just called Ben Simmons a beta while Mitchell is the go to guy.

But since you want to make this a fight...

Okay, I get your points.

Hard for me to rank Simmons because of it being only half a year into his career and because of Embiid.

I think it's a huge plus that Embiid takes a huge chunk of the attention, and pressure, off of Ben with his play and troll game.


It's the Scottie Pippen syndrome.

How great could he be as a #1 option?

But, how much greater will his career be since he doesn't have to be?

I'm pretty sure Dame Lillard would love to have a legit Superstar talent to share the load.

Simmons could put up bigger stats if he had too.

Thankfully, he doesn't have to.

You can speculate that the Simmons wouldn't be nearly as good without Embiid. We KNOW that Mitchell WASN'T nearly as good without Gobert.

Sometimes I feel like it is a requirement for me to say in every post "I think that both Simmons and Mitchell are worthy candidates for ROY. I'll argue in favor of Simmons but I completely get why Mitchell could win and deservedly" just avoid this kind of bullshit pissing contest.

It seems to me that you are the one who gets defensive whenever someone says anything that approaches a criticism of Mitchell.
 

Mecca

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JFC. You just called Ben Simmons a beta while Mitchell is the go to guy.

But since you want to make this a fight...



You can speculate that the Simmons wouldn't be nearly as good without Embiid. We KNOW that Mitchell WASN'T nearly as good without Gobert.

Sometimes I feel like it is a requirement for me to say in every post "I think that both Simmons and Mitchell are worthy candidates for ROY. I'll argue in favor of Simmons but I completely get why Mitchell could win and deservedly" just avoid this kind of bullshit pissing contest.

It seems to me that you are the one who gets defensive whenever someone says anything that approaches a criticism of Mitchell.
That's nice.

But, where is the part where I , or anyone else here, said Mitchell is a one man show and Simmons wouldn't be good if not for Embiid?....lol

Ill wait.....

We didn't, that's just you being passive aggressive.

Scottie Pippen- Beta

Chris Paul - Beta

CJ McCollum - Beta

All great players, just like Simmons.

All play second fiddle on their teams.

All would still be great solo.

Embiid does take pressure off Simmons with his play and on/off court theatrics.

I'm not sure why you see that as me saying Simmons wouldn't be as good.

Ben has more help...these are facts.

If you don't like being called out for being passive aggressive, maybe stop doing it?
 
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flyerhawk

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That's nice.

But, where is the part where I , or anyone else here, said Mitchell is a one man show and Simmons wouldn't be good if not for Embiid?....lol

Ill wait.....

We didn't, that's just you being passive aggressive.

Scottie Pippen- Beta

Chris Paul - Beta

CJ McCollum - Beta

All great players, just like Simmons.

All play second fiddle on their teams.

All would still be great solo.

Embiid does take pressure off Simmons with his play and on/off court theatrics.

I'm not sure why you see that as me saying Simmons wouldn't be as good.

Ben has more help...these are facts.

If you don't like being called out for being passive aggressive, maybe stop doing it?

I didn't say you said anything.

I did say that some people, when comparing Simmons to Mitchell, will qualify Simmons accomplishments while not doing the same with Mitchell and Gobert. That's the sum total of the point I was making. Using mild hyperbole to make that point is hardly passive-aggressive.

Simmons doesn't shoot from the mid-range or beyond which is something he will need to work on. That will limit his overall impact.
 

Mecca

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I didn't say you said anything.

I did say that some people, when comparing Simmons to Mitchell, will qualify Simmons accomplishments while not doing the same with Mitchell and Gobert. That's the sum total of the point I was making. Using mild hyperbole to make that point is hardly passive-aggressive.

Simmons doesn't shoot from the mid-range or beyond which is something he will need to work on. That will limit his overall impact.
If he develops a outside jumper, he's the next LeBron.

Possibly BETTER.

If he doesn't, at worst he's Pippen.

That's a pretty decent floor...imo
 

flyerhawk

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If he develops a outside jumper, he's the next LeBron.

Possibly BETTER.

If he doesn't, at worst he's Pippen.

That's a pretty decent floor...imo

That's a fair statement.

To be clear I was NEVER implying that you were slagging Simmons. Sorry if you thought that. In fact I don't think anyone is.
 

Mecca

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This was the point I was trying to make about Mitchell..

It's not just that he's scoring. It's WHEN and HOW.

It's a couple of weeks old. But, you get the gist...


donovan_mitchell_usat.jpg

1. Donovan Mitchell, Jazz
Rank Last Week: No. 2

Mitchell deserves more credit for his play of late, that's why he's now in the top spot.

While Simmons gets to work with another franchise player in Joel Embiid, Mitchell just saw Utah's second-leading scorer traded at the deadline (Rodney Hood), and has only gotten 32 games out of center Rudy Gobert.

The Jazz have won 11 straight, and Mitchell is the first rookie to lead his team in scoring during a winning streak that length.

He leads all rookies in scoring (19.6) while shooting 35 percent from three, taking over six per game.

Donovan Mitchell Ranks 7th in 4th Quarter Scoring (6.6 points on 58.6 TS%)

Lou Williams, Lebron James, Jimmy Butler, Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, and James Harden are the only players in the NBA that average more points than Donovan Mitchell in the 4th Quarter.
 

Mecca

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That's a fair statement.

To be clear I was NEVER implying that you were slagging Simmons. Sorry if you thought that. In fact I don't think anyone is.
Fun fact....

I like debating * see arguing*..

I REALLY like debating with you for 2 reasons:

1. You are fiery.

2. You actually know what the hell your talking about.

:suds:
 
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