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Reason for Seahawks fall from grace

dude82

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Fall from grace is a bit dramatic. I won't add too much to what's already been said except to say, again, that for the potential for a sixth straight 10+ win season (still possible despite how the team looked the other day) and a spot in the playoffs (even if that chance has gotten significantly slimmer too) to be seen as a "fall from grace" would have been met with a "you're kidding, right?" reaction as recently as 2009, hell, maybe even as recently as 2011.

We've been so unbelievably spoiled the past five years that we've come to expect nothing short of 10+ wins and a trip to the playoffs and apparently anything short of that is a "fall from grace" regardless of circumstance? Give me a break. What's been the difference between previous years of success and this year? The injuries. We've had injuries in the past and some of them have been to significant players, but we've never had this many significant injuries to this many significant players all at once before. Are there certain aspects of the roster construction that you can legitimately criticize? Sure. But look at all of the significant injuries to significant players we've had this year and look at where we can still go in spite of that. The absolute worst this team can do is 8-8. Remember the days when that was the absolute best you could expect them to do with a healthy roster? If they miss the playoffs, it'll suck, but it's hardly a "fall from grace".
 

PolarVortex

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Do you guys think that Pete Carroll might be a victim of his own success in that he feels he can plug any athlete into his system and have success? I see the same attribute with Belichick but he seems to be able to get away with it a little more often.
You can't really compare Belichick to Carroll for one primary reason. Belichick holds his players accountable for their mental preparation, on-field focus and emotional control. Carroll does not. If Belichick coached they Seahawks in the Russell Wilson era, this team would have at least three championships, at least four superbowl trips, Sherman wouldn't be a team cancer with no filter on his mouth, and Michael Bennett wouldn't be a compulsive liar.
 

MrS

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Are you saying the "players coach" mentality suffers from diminishing returns?
 

PolarVortex

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Are you saying the "players coach" mentality suffers from diminishing returns?
Eventually, yes. If there is no limit to the rein you give your players, they will ultimately become out of control. The Seahawk players are clearly out of control. Pete either can't or won't put a stop to it. It is going to get ugly again in Dallas this weekend. Just watch. The season will end on a peaceful note with a home win over the inept Cardinals, but it won't mean much other than guaranteeing a season over .500.
 

PolarVortex

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Fall from grace is a bit dramatic. I won't add too much to what's already been said except to say, again, that for the potential for a sixth straight 10+ win season (still possible despite how the team looked the other day) and a spot in the playoffs (even if that chance has gotten significantly slimmer too) to be seen as a "fall from grace" would have been met with a "you're kidding, right?" reaction as recently as 2009, hell, maybe even as recently as 2011.

We've been so unbelievably spoiled the past five years that we've come to expect nothing short of 10+ wins and a trip to the playoffs and apparently anything short of that is a "fall from grace" regardless of circumstance? Give me a break. What's been the difference between previous years of success and this year? The injuries. We've had injuries in the past and some of them have been to significant players, but we've never had this many significant injuries to this many significant players all at once before. Are there certain aspects of the roster construction that you can legitimately criticize? Sure. But look at all of the significant injuries to significant players we've had this year and look at where we can still go in spite of that. The absolute worst this team can do is 8-8. Remember the days when that was the absolute best you could expect them to do with a healthy roster? If they miss the playoffs, it'll suck, but it's hardly a "fall from grace".
When did this team have grace, anyway? Not a good description for them.
 

MrS

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Eventually, yes. If there is no limit to the rein you give your players, they will ultimately become out of control. The Seahawk players are clearly out of control. Pete either can't or won't put a stop to it. It is going to get ugly again in Dallas this weekend. Just watch. The season will end on a peaceful note with a home win over the inept Cardinals, but it won't mean much other than guaranteeing a season over .500.

I agree with you i was being a tad sarcastic.

I also think our players need to focus on football and less on politics.
 

seattlefan75

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Fall from grace is a bit dramatic. I won't add too much to what's already been said except to say, again, that for the potential for a sixth straight 10+ win season (still possible despite how the team looked the other day) and a spot in the playoffs (even if that chance has gotten significantly slimmer too) to be seen as a "fall from grace" would have been met with a "you're kidding, right?" reaction as recently as 2009, hell, maybe even as recently as 2011.

We've been so unbelievably spoiled the past five years that we've come to expect nothing short of 10+ wins and a trip to the playoffs and apparently anything short of that is a "fall from grace" regardless of circumstance? Give me a break. What's been the difference between previous years of success and this year? The injuries. We've had injuries in the past and some of them have been to significant players, but we've never had this many significant injuries to this many significant players all at once before. Are there certain aspects of the roster construction that you can legitimately criticize? Sure. But look at all of the significant injuries to significant players we've had this year and look at where we can still go in spite of that. The absolute worst this team can do is 8-8. Remember the days when that was the absolute best you could expect them to do with a healthy roster? If they miss the playoffs, it'll suck, but it's hardly a "fall from grace".

Spoiled? so falling short of your goals and getting embarrassed is ok because thats how it used to be before the Pete Caroll era? I am all for losing when your franchise is in a state of finding themselves drafting in the high middle rounds looking for players that will be the face of the franchise but when your salary cap is pushed the brim and its clear that the expectations are to win the division and make a run in the playoffs then end up having a 9-7 season is a travesty. If we arent going to act like we are in it to win games then dont charge fans $200 bucks for nose bleed seats give us the rate a team like the buffalo bills or Tennessee Titans would charge their fans to watch the games.
 

Screamin12th

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Well you lose your starting LT before the seasons starts and it is going to be tough to replace him.

I wouldn't be surprised if they shift Ifedi and Pocic.

I didn't have any faith in Fant playing better than what we saw from Odiambo to be honest. When they lost Fant i felt bad for him but i felt this would force them to bring someone in but they took forever to do that lol. Brown really helped but it would have been much nicer to have him from the start. We might have 1 maybe 2 more wins, ok maybe just one.
 

Anointed One

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Well you lose your starting LT before the seasons starts and it is going to be tough to replace him.

I wouldn't be surprised if they shift Ifedi and Pocic.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them play Fant at RT next year...
 

NWPATSFAN

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The Seahawks were considered one of the most talented teams for the last 5 years. Now that the first cycle of players are fading away, you want to blast the drafting?

The Seahawks have significantly failed when it comes to bringing in OL talent, although Brown has been good so far. Our OL draft has simply failed to find the right players.

BTW, here are the Patriots drafts over the same period..

2017 1 3 19 83 Derek Rivers DE Youngstown State
2 3 21 85 Antonio Garcia T Troy
3 4 25 131 Deatrich Wise DE Arkansas
4 6 28 211 Conor McDermott T UCLA
2016 1 2 29 60 Cyrus Jones DB Alabama
2 3 15 78 Joe Thuney G North Carolina State
3 3 29 91 Jacoby Brissett QB North Carolina State
4 3 34 96 Vincent Valentine DT Nebraska
5 4 14 112 Malcolm Mitchell WR Georgia
6 6 33 208 Kamu Grugier-Hill LB Eastern Illinois
7 6 39 214 Elandon Roberts LB Houston
8 6 46 221 Ted Karras G Illinois
9 7 4 225 Devin Lucien WR Arizona State
2015 1 1 32 32 Malcom Brown DT Texas
2 2 32 64 Jordan Richards DB Stanford
3 3 33 97 Geneo Grissom DE Oklahoma
4 4 2 101 Trey Flowers DE Arkansas
5 4 12 111 Tre' Jackson G Florida State
6 4 32 131 Shaquille Mason C Georgia Tech
7 5 30 166 Joe Cardona C Navy
8 6 2 178 Matthew Wells LB Mississippi State
9 6 26 202 A.J. Derby TE Arkansas
10 7 30 247 Darryl Roberts DB Marshall
11 7 36 253 Xzavier Dickson LB Alabama
2014 1 1 29 29 Dominique Easley DT Florida
2 2 30 62 Jimmy Garoppolo QB Eastern Illinois
3 4 5 105 Bryan Stork C Florida State
4 4 30 130 James White RB Wisconsin
5 4 40 140 Cameron Fleming T Stanford
6 6 3 179 Jon Halapio G Florida
7 6 22 198 Zach Moore DE Concordia (MN)
8 6 30 206 Jemea Thomas DB Georgia Tech
9 7 29 244 Jeremy Gallon WR Michigan
2013 1 2 20 52 Jamie Collins LB Southern Mississippi
2 2 27 59 Aaron Dobson WR Marshall
3 3 21 83 Logan Ryan DB Rutgers
4 3 29 91 Duron Harmon DB Rutgers
5 4 5 102 Josh Boyce WR Texas Christian
6 7 20 226 Michael Buchanan DE Illinois
7 7 29 235 Steve Beauharnais LB Rutgers

Who are all the amazing players that they drafted? Logan Ryan? James White?

If you come away from a draft with one bonafide starter as a rookie, you are doing pretty well. This is especially true of teams with a lot of talent like the Seahawks.

Jarren Reeds, Naz Jones, Frank Clark, Shaq Griffin. These are all legitimate players that were starters or rotational starters.

I know a lot of fans are going to want to blow it all up but that doesn't make any sense.
Actually the majority of these guys are on NE active roster, PS or IR. A handful of others have been traded and start or are quality back ups. No not a lot of Amazing players (I'll let you define amazing).
Let's remember NE has regularly drafted later then Seattle for the past 15 years.
 

flyerhawk

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Actually the majority of these guys are on NE active roster, PS or IR. A handful of others have been traded and start or are quality back ups. No not a lot of Amazing players (I'll let you define amazing).
Let's remember NE has regularly drafted later then Seattle for the past 15 years.

My point wasn't Seattle is better than New England. Not sure what drafts from 15 years ago have to do with this.
 

NWPATSFAN

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My point wasn't Seattle is better than New England. Not sure what drafts from 15 years ago have to do with this.
What I took from it was you were comparing NE to SEA as not having good drafts. My point was NE actually did pretty well.

I mentioned 15 years because someone had said how drafting late is a reason for not finding starters/quality players. Point being NE has routinely drafted late and have even lost picks yet have drafted fairly well.
 

flyerhawk

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What I took from it was you were comparing NE to SEA as not having good drafts. My point was NE actually did pretty well.

New England has done perfectly well. I used them as the example because they are the most successful team in the league. And the point is that New England doesn't hit them all out of the park or even come close.

Of the 2013 draft only 1 player is still on the Pats. Collins got them picks in return so he provided value. The rest of either on another team or out of football.
2014 resulted in 2 current Patriots and Garrapolo.

And so on and so on. My point isn't that this is bad. My point is that drafting is difficult and most picks don't turn into studs. If you get 2 full time starters from your draft you've done well. More than that is excellent. A few years ago I spent a little time looking at the success rate of 1st draft picks by slot. I looked at the previous 10 years, from that time, and gave a general hit rate. It was a pretty straight linear rate that went down with each pick. But even the No. 1 pick only hit at about 50% of the time. By around 20 it was something like 25% IIRC.



I mentioned 15 years because someone had said how drafting late is a reason for not finding starters/quality players. Point being NE has routinely drafted late and have even lost picks yet have drafted fairly well.

Drafts aren't defined by the first round.
 

NWPATSFAN

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New England has done perfectly well. I used them as the example because they are the most successful team in the league. And the point is that New England doesn't hit them all out of the park or even come close.

Of the 2013 draft only 1 player is still on the Pats. Collins got them picks in return so he provided value. The rest of either on another team or out of football.
2014 resulted in 2 current Patriots and Garrapolo.

And so on and so on. My point isn't that this is bad. My point is that drafting is difficult and most picks don't turn into studs. If you get 2 full time starters from your draft you've done well. More than that is excellent. A few years ago I spent a little time looking at the success rate of 1st draft picks by slot. I looked at the previous 10 years, from that time, and gave a general hit rate. It was a pretty straight linear rate that went down with each pick. But even the No. 1 pick only hit at about 50% of the time. By around 20 it was something like 25% IIRC.





Drafts aren't defined by the first round.
Oh no doubt it's a crap shoot. That's another reason why BB doesn't mind trading down. He's always late first round picking anyway. Why pay the extra $ for first rounder when he finds adequate talent later? First round gives you the 5th year option is the only plus. As I mentioned the majority of picks are either active or have been on other rosters. I'm not claiming any were superstars I leave that subjectivity up to others. Of the 9 picks in 2014, 4 players are starting in the NFL. Brian Stork would still be playing if it weren't for concussions. Halapio and Moore are both on active rosters. 2013 was similar. Boyce as a 4th had the most potential he just never panned out. Too many injuries. 7 picks in 13, 4 starters on NE or other teams....

As you mentioned NE has drafted well especially considering the position they routinely draft in. Not to mention BBs love affair with college football power houses like Rutgers, Concordia and TX Christian...Bill drafts for IQ, leadership and how the player will work in the system moreso than just talent.
 

Warden

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I accidentally put this post under the wrong thread so I copied and pasted it to this thread

If you are looking for instant gratification from drafted players, you will be more often then not be disappointed. Yes there are many examples of young players excelling right away but they are the exception not the norm. It takes time. It is so much harder to develop players when you do not play them in game time situations. This is a problem that the Seahawks face, because they have such a key group of starters that the rookies are getting very limited playing time. Example, draft a middle linebacker, well he is not going to see the field because Wagner is going to take 95% of the snaps. It also has become increasingly more difficult to develop players in training camp with the removal of two a days and so many practices been non contact
The rules and format of the league is specifically designed to have the bottom dwellers move up and the top teams move down. Always picking late eventually catches up. Renewing your star players contracts always ends up with escalators in the contract which means very year it becomes more expensive to keep them, meaning you become less of a player on the free market and eventually releasing good players to stay under the cap.

Eight years ago, Pete Carrol stated that he has a big advantage over the other teams when it comes to drafting players, because he knew all the players in college and tried to recruit many of them in high school. As the years move on, he no longer has this advantage.

If we win out this year we will finish with double digit wins for the sixth straight year. How amazing is this stat for the Seahawks? well before this streak, not once, have we ever accomplished back to back double digit winning seasons. Not under Holmgren, not under Knox. In fact before this streak, in the 35 plus years the Seahawks have been in existence, they have only had four double digit seasons. Doing so year after year is incredibly hard to do. Poor drafting position, salary cap issues, players have lots of money and may have other interests then football just may be not as hungry when were younger, and a players aging causes declining play. Once again what they are doing in New England is the exception not the norm but when you look at the number of back to back double digit win seasons we are probably second only to the Patriots which is pretty damn good.

There are many things that you can question, some of our philosophies have changed and not for the better. For example, when Pete first started he was always searching for that big WR, Mike Williams experiment, Sidney Rice they did try to get Brandon Marshall. Then we went off drafting smaller type WRs in Richardson and Lockett and still lack that big body number one WR. There has been numerous other situations where we have sacrificed size on who we drafted. But once again when you are drafting late all the time, the ideal player is not always there. We also have not adjusted well to the post Lynch era. Our scripted plays that we start the games off to set up the run as the game no longer work, usually the scripted plays just cause a slow start and have us scrambling to get back into the game. We keep have too many new starters on our line at the beginning of the year and with the limited contact in practice, it takes too long to get the timing for the zone blocking system down, once again causing slow starts.

I seldom post on message boards anymore mainly because in general, fans are stupid. I just have to go onto Seahawks Net to prove my case. So many fire Pet Carrol posts, so many posts that we are poorly coached. They use there 20/20 hind sight to criticize form an opinion and try to sound all intelligent. But they can't seem to grasp the concept that the other teams are trying just as hard as we are, the other players get paid too, that there are extremely talented players on all teams. In the last seven years under Pete Carrol we have made the playoffs six time, have won more playoff games then all the other Seahawk coaches combined, have had more double digit winning season then all the other coaches combined, been to two Superbowls, winning one of them. We have been a team that can compete with the other good teams, a team that can win on the road, a team that is always in it. Even after this injury plagued year where we are second in the amount of players put on IR, we still where in the mix of things. I choose to appreciate all the good things that happened instead of focusing on the things that did not go right. I understand just how hard it is to win year after year in this league and how special our run has been. I look forward to the last two games hoping we can win out and finish in the double digit win column again. That would be a successful season.
 

MrS

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a 10-6 season without playoffs will give them reason to say "well shucks we had a great year but just missed the playoffs, no need to make changes"

tank and go 8-8, better for the future.
 

flyerhawk

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a 10-6 season without playoffs will give them reason to say "well shucks we had a great year but just missed the playoffs, no need to make changes"

tank and go 8-8, better for the future.

Maybe then they will fire the entire coaching staff and we can roll the dice and see what the next batch does? Not like this coaching staff has done anything to merit our trust.
 

Warden

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a 10-6 season without playoffs will give them reason to say "well shucks we had a great year but just missed the playoffs, no need to make changes"

tank and go 8-8, better for the future.

Accepting losing, developing a losing culture by saying tanking the season for a better draft choice, will do way more harm then you could even imagine. You go out and compete at 100% anything less is unacceptable. Building a winning culture is way more important then a high draft choice.
 

MrS

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The writing is on the wall, if they dont make changes now the next few years are going to be brutal
 
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