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POLL C. C Sabathia and the HOF

If CC Sabathia gets to 250 wins, does he make the HOF?

  • Yes, he will.

  • No, he wont and he never will.

  • Mandatory salad featuring potatoes


Results are only viewable after voting.

MilkSpiller22

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I dont think its the years as much as its starting pitchers rarely seeing the 7th inning anymore, nevermind the 8th or 9th, so a lot of these W/L are so dependent on other pitchers


sure it is harder to get a win... But if a pitcher lasts long enough, 300 is a possibility... We have had 4 300 game winners who have retired since 2007... OF course we have nobody really on pace to do it currently playing, but how do we know a pitcher in our future wont have the perfect storm to get it??

you realize only 24 pitchers ever reached 300 wins, and only 10 of those pitchers started their career 1960 or after... Point is, it is very rare in the first place... so we know if someone does it, they have to get that perfect storm, why cant it happen again??
 

soxfan1468927

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league averages sure, but how many players get to 20 wins without averaging at least 7 innings per game??
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that players are still getting to 20 wins without averaging 7 innings per start? Yeah I get that. I was just showing that no decisions are increasing across the board.

I actually agree that we will see a 300 winner again. We aren't that far removed from having one. It's like a few years ago, before Kershaw got to 301, people were wondering if any pitcher would reach 300 strikeouts again. There was a long period where we didn't have one.
 

MilkSpiller22

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I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that players are still getting to 20 wins without averaging 7 innings per start? Yeah I get that. I was just showing that no decisions are increasing across the board.

I actually agree that we will see a 300 winner again. We aren't that far removed from having one. It's like a few years ago, before Kershaw got to 301, people were wondering if any pitcher would reach 300 strikeouts again. There was a long period where we didn't have one.


the point is that the increase of no decisions is irrelevant to the discussion... any player who has a chance for 300 wins will not be able to do it with an average innings per game less than 6.2... Just like it has always been...


More-so, the league average in innings pitched per season has surely decreased, but that's not saying we wont have a bunch of pitchers who pitched over 200 innings...
 

soxfan1468927

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the point is that the increase of no decisions is irrelevant to the discussion... any player who has a chance for 300 wins will not be able to do it with an average innings per game less than 6.2... Just like it has always been...


More-so, the league average in innings pitched per season has surely decreased, but that's not saying we wont have a bunch of pitchers who pitched over 200 innings...
I get that, you are saying that just because the average decreases across the board, doesn't decrease the odds of a player emerging from that. Since we still have players who can go 6.5-7 innings per start, we still have the chance for someone to get 300 wins. I happen to agree.

Also, we have been in this situation before. The active leader in wins in 1968 was Don Drysdale at just 204, and he was 31. Next was Jim Bunning at 196 (age 36), Larry Jackson at 194 (age 37), etc. There was one active player under the age of 30 who was halfway there, Milt Pappas was at 150.
 

MilkSpiller22

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I get that, you are saying that just because the average decreases across the board, doesn't decrease the odds of a player emerging from that. Since we still have players who can go 6.5-7 innings per start, we still have the chance for someone to get 300 wins. I happen to agree.

Also, we have been in this situation before. The active leader in wins in 1968 was Don Drysdale at just 204, and he was 31. Next was Jim Bunning at 196 (age 36), Larry Jackson at 194 (age 37), etc. There was one active player under the age of 30 who was halfway there, Milt Pappas was at 150.


So then back to the thread... Should CC be in the HOF... I say no, even with 250...

I am all in for milestones, but 300 is the milestone, and I explained why IMO there is no reason to go with the OPs assumption that 250 is the new 300... so he doesn't get in for milestone...

then you look at his 162 game averages,

he has a 3.71 ERA, 1.253 WHIP, 117 ERA+, 3.70 FIP, 222 innings, 34 GS, and 190 Ks

THat is far from a HOFer.

then I look at dominance.

He only had one season with an ERA below 3.00, never had a WHIP less than 1.1(in a full season), highest ERA+ was 156.

Did not have the dominance...

then look at achievements- 1 CY, 6X AS, 5 times top 10 CY

pretty good achievements, but nothing that really stands out...



He is in the Hall of very good, but no way is he in the HOF... he isn't even a borderliner for me...
 

soxfan1468927

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So then back to the thread... Should CC be in the HOF... I say no, even with 250...

I am all in for milestones, but 300 is the milestone, and I explained why IMO there is no reason to go with the OPs assumption that 250 is the new 300... so he doesn't get in for milestone...

then you look at his 162 game averages,

he has a 3.71 ERA, 1.253 WHIP, 117 ERA+, 3.70 FIP, 222 innings, 34 GS, and 190 Ks

THat is far from a HOFer.

then I look at dominance.

He only had one season with an ERA below 3.00, never had a WHIP less than 1.1(in a full season), highest ERA+ was 156.

Did not have the dominance...

then look at achievements- 1 CY, 6X AS, 5 times top 10 CY

pretty good achievements, but nothing that really stands out...



He is in the Hall of very good, but no way is he in the HOF... he isn't even a borderliner for me...
I think you are setting arbitrary cut-offs like "ERA under 3.00" and "WHIP under 1.1" to make your point, and I don't think arguments like that hold much weight.

And if you are "all in" for milestones, do you just not care about the 3000 strikeout milestone? Fewer players have 3000 strikeouts than have 300 wins.

I stated my case earlier if you'd like to respond to those posts earlier in the thread.
 

MilkSpiller22

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I think you are setting arbitrary cut-offs like "ERA under 3.00" and "WHIP under 1.1" to make your point, and I don't think arguments like that hold much weight.

And if you are "all in" for milestones, do you just not care about the 3000 strikeout milestone? Fewer players have 3000 strikeouts than have 300 wins.

I stated my case earlier if you'd like to respond to those posts earlier in the thread.


how are those arbitrary??? I was measuring dominance... if anything I increased the leash for him...

is 3000 SO a milestone that voters look at?? I see all with 3000 SO made the HOF, but none made it BECAUSE of the 3000 SO... so I am not sure if this is an actual milestone of importance... If he does reach 3000, I will certainly reevaluate... but I just don't know if that is a HOF milestone...
 

navamind

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not this crap again
 

Wazmankg

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He's definitely not a lock, especially if he gets to 250 with a few mediocre seasons with a handful of wins each. I wish there was another option, but I went with no. A few more years with eras/whips north of 3.80/1.30 won't help his case. Borderline.
 

soxfan1468927

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how are those arbitrary??? I was measuring dominance... if anything I increased the leash for him...

is 3000 SO a milestone that voters look at?? I see all with 3000 SO made the HOF, but none made it BECAUSE of the 3000 SO... so I am not sure if this is an actual milestone of importance... If he does reach 3000, I will certainly reevaluate... but I just don't know if that is a HOF milestone...
By definition those are arbitrary. As are "milestones" for that matter, but that's beside the point.

I don't really care too much about what the voters think as opposed to what I think should happen. Which is why I asked you about your opinion on 3000 strikeouts since you said you were "all in" on milestones. I was hoping you would clarify those statements. If you are saying you are "all in" on milestones that a bunch of writers have deemed to be HOF worthy than I think that's a cop-out.
 

navamind

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There were 49 starting pitchers with an ERA under 3 in 1968. Would you say they were all dominant?
 

navamind

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and averaging 222 innings in this era is pretty remarkable, especially for a guy that's pitched 17 years. He's made 28+ starts in 15 of his 17 seasons in the majors and has thrown 180+ in 13 of his seasons, not to mention he was in the top 5 five years in a row and led all of MLB in 2007 and 2008. 3299.1 innings is pretty amazing for a SP over the last few decades.
 

DirtDirtDirt

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ill kick everyones ass
 

MilkSpiller22

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There were 49 starting pitchers with an ERA under 3 in 1968. Would you say they were all dominant?


fair enough... I generally just use that as a quick analysis... I agree dominance is relative and fully dependent on his peers... I probably should have just said:

ERA- was top 10 in MLB only twice, was top 5 once... never top 3

WHIP- top 10 in MLB 3 times, top 5 once... never top 3

ERA+- top 10 in MLB 4 times, top 5 once... never top 3

SO- top 10 in MLB 3 times, top 5 twice... top 3 once, never the SO leader

WAR- top 10 in MLB 3 times, top 5 three time. Never top 3


This shows me that he was never the best, and rarely even a top 10... he has pitched for 17 seasons...
 

MilkSpiller22

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and averaging 222 innings in this era is pretty remarkable, especially for a guy that's pitched 17 years. He's made 28+ starts in 15 of his 17 seasons in the majors and has thrown 180+ in 13 of his seasons, not to mention he was in the top 5 five years in a row and led all of MLB in 2007 and 2008. 3299.1 innings is pretty amazing for a SP over the last few decades.


he hasn't average 222 innings per season... the 162 game averages gives him a full season of starts at 34... he only had 4 seasons of 34 or more starts, and 5 seasons of 222 innings or more...

My bad for the confusement...
 

Voltaire26

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250 is the new 300, because we will never see 300 again.

CC Sabathia can see 300 anytime he wants ... just step on the scale

Seriously, Jack Morris v. CC Sabathia, I think Morris wins out ... Morris won more games than any other pitcher in the 1980's and has 3 World Series Rings from 3 different teams.

No one else should be able to enter the Hall of Fame until they take care of the obvious Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker (19 year Keystone combination) and Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire (all of who had to bat against pitchers on PEDs) and Roger Clemens (who had to pitch against batters on PEDs).
 

MilkSpiller22

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By definition those are arbitrary. As are "milestones" for that matter, but that's beside the point.

I don't really care too much about what the voters think as opposed to what I think should happen. Which is why I asked you about your opinion on 3000 strikeouts since you said you were "all in" on milestones. I was hoping you would clarify those statements. If you are saying you are "all in" on milestones that a bunch of writers have deemed to be HOF worthy than I think that's a cop-out.


I think I said this in another post somewhere else a while ago... But I use my own milestones... some milestone numbers I believe are too little... especially HRs... and although I do like milestones, i haven't really concluded if i like ALL milestones... or just the major ones... I don't know if Isee SO to be a major milestone... I will certainly reevaluate IF the unlikely happens and that he reaches 3000 SO... But as of now I am just not sure...
 

soxfan1468927

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CC Sabathia can see 300 anytime he wants ... just step on the scale

Seriously, Jack Morris v. CC Sabathia, I think Morris wins out ... Morris won more games than any other pitcher in the 1980's and has 3 World Series Rings from 3 different teams.

No one else should be able to enter the Hall of Fame until they take care of the obvious Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker (19 year Keystone combination) and Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire (all of who had to bat against pitchers on PEDs) and Roger Clemens (who had to pitch against batters on PEDs).
And Andy Pettitte won more games in the 2000s than anyone else, doesn't make him a HOFer. Jack Morris doesn't belong anywhere near the HOF.

I can get on board with Trammell and Whitaker. I think McGwire and Sosa are borderline even ignoring steroids (which I tend to do).
 

soxfan1468927

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I think I said this in another post somewhere else a while ago... But I use my own milestones... some milestone numbers I believe are too little... especially HRs... and although I do like milestones, i haven't really concluded if i like ALL milestones... or just the major ones... I don't know if Isee SO to be a major milestone... I will certainly reevaluate IF the unlikely happens and that he reaches 3000 SO... But as of now I am just not sure...
Unlikely? He's 169 strikeouts away.
 
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