POLL C. C Sabathia and the HOF

[Rock Strongo]

234 wins
146 losses

3.74 ERA

6 times AS

1 CY
4 top 5 finishes

led the AL in wins twice, starts twice, IP once, CG once, and shutouts once (all different seasons)

from 2007-2013 he averaged a whopping 230 IP a season

career WAR is 66.2

I say if he reaches 250 wins hes a lock for the HOF. You?

 

[Rock Strongo]

vote and discuss

 

[BigKen]

Not dominating enough. He's a money player now and will kill his own stats for the paycheck.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Not dominating enough. He's a money player now and will kill his own stats for the paycheck.

The last two years have certainly helped his case. Average AL starters are going 5.6 IP per start with a 4.41 ERA, while CC has gone 5.75 IP/start with a 3.88 ERA. And that's with CC playing in a hitter's park.

He did have a stretch from 2006-2011 where he was one of the best two pitchers in baseball (behind Halladay) and also threw in a dominant World Series run in 2009. And then, outside of that run, he has multiple valuable seasons (notably 2012, 2003, and the last two years in NY).

I said in the other thread, that if he retired now I wouldn't vote for him, but I think he's close.

 

[redseat]

Close.. But if he retired right now imo no

 

[soxfan1468927]

2013-2015 certainly hurt him, but if you take out those seasons, he likely has around a 124 ERA+ over 3000 IP. Something only 18 players have accomplished since 1901, 15 of them are in the HOF. The only ones who aren't are Clemens, Schilling, and Kevin Brown.

Now, you can't just take out a player's worst years and pretend they didn't happen, but that's why I think he needs another season to (more or less) make up for those 3 shitty years.

Also, he's likely going to get to 3000 strikeouts, becoming the 17th player to do so. Schilling and Clemens are the only ones in that group who aren't in the HOF (and both deserve to be in)

 

[Rock Strongo]

2013-2015 certainly hurt him, but if you take out those seasons, he likely has around a 124 ERA+ over 3000 IP. Something only 18 players have accomplished since 1901, 15 of them are in the HOF. The only ones who aren't are Clemens, Schilling, and Kevin Brown.

Now, you can't just take out a player's worst years and pretend they didn't happen, but that's why I think he needs another season to (more or less) make up for those 3 shitty years.

Also, he's likely going to get to 3000 strikeouts, becoming the 17th player to do so. Schilling and Clemens are the only ones in that group who aren't in the HOF (and both deserve to be in)

i rest my case

 

[soxfan1468927]

i rest my case

I do love some HOF debates. The Veteran's Committee ballot should be announced right at the end of the regular season. Would love to see what kind of support Trammell, Whitaker, Tiant, and Evans get if they make it on there. And hoping that Jack Morris gets no support.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Think the Yanks give him a one year deal with a 2nd year club option

Think the numbers he could compile there will put him over the top

 

[BigKen]

Think the Yanks give him a one year deal with a 2nd year club option

Think the numbers he could compile there will put him over the top

I tend to agree with you Dirt, but age has a way of creeping up on professionals and some of them go completely to hell in a handbasket from one year to the next. The biggest problem for all of them is that huge (to us anyway) paycheck that they just can't walk away from. Since it's guaranteed, makes it even harder.

If you had a choice of walking away into retirement, no more of the camaraderie, reporters in your face, adolation and fame, or playing a couple more years even though you know you really can't do the job anymore for $20M.
Which would you take???? Fuck retirement, gimme the cash.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I tend to agree with you Dirt, but age has a way of creeping up on professionals and some of them go completely to hell in a handbasket from one year to the next. The biggest problem for all of them is that huge (to us anyway) paycheck that they just can't walk away from. Since it's guaranteed, makes it even harder.

If you had a choice of walking away into retirement, no more of the camaraderie, reporters in your face, adolation and fame, or playing a couple more years even though you know you really can't do the job anymore for $20M.
Which would you take???? Fuck retirement, gimme the cash.

I don't know why that would hurt his case though. He only needs 1 or 2 more years similar to the last two years to get in, in my opinion. Hanging on at the end of his career shouldn't hurt him.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I tend to agree with you Dirt, but age has a way of creeping up on professionals and some of them go completely to hell in a handbasket from one year to the next. The biggest problem for all of them is that huge (to us anyway) paycheck that they just can't walk away from. Since it's guaranteed, makes it even harder.

If you had a choice of walking away into retirement, no more of the camaraderie, reporters in your face, adolation and fame, or playing a couple more years even though you know you really can't do the job anymore for $20M.
Which would you take???? Fuck retirement, gimme the cash.

True, and I would have definitely been deadset against it at the beginning of this season, but CC has really impressed me in the way he has gone from power pitcher, to a guy that has really learned how to pitch with limited stuff.....Hitting corners, changing speeds, keeping hitters off balance.....I think the wear and tear at his age is much less than if he was still trying to power guys, so another season or 2 of a mid 3 ERA wouldnt shock me

 

[Win TWINS!!!]

Is he going for the buffet?

 

[WiggyRuss]

234 wins
146 losses

3.74 ERA

6 times AS

1 CY
4 top 5 finishes

led the AL in wins twice, starts twice, IP once, CG once, and shutouts once (all different seasons)

from 2007-2013 he averaged a whopping 230 IP a season

career WAR is 66.2

I say if he reaches 250 wins hes a lock for the HOF. You?

250 wins is a LOT in todays game.

What other modern players are likely/have hit that 250 win plateau?

just to get some perspective.

 

[Rock Strongo]

250 wins is a LOT in todays game.

What other modern players are likely/have hit that 250 win plateau?

just to get some perspective.

250 is the new 300, because we will never see 300 again.

 

[Rock Strongo]

250 wins is a LOT in todays game.

What other modern players are likely/have hit that 250 win plateau?

just to get some perspective.

more perspective. Here is CC in wins vs other active players. top 10:

Rank Player (yrs, age) Wins Throws
1. Bartolo Colon (20, 44) 239 R
2. CC Sabathia (17, 36) 234 L
3. John Lackey (15, 38) 187 R
4. Justin Verlander (13, 34) 184 R
5. Zack Greinke (14, 33) 171 R
6. Felix Hernandez (13, 31) 159 R
7. Jon Lester (12, 33) 156 L
8. Jered Weaver (12, 34) 150 R
9. Bronson Arroyo (16, 40) 148 R
Ervin Santana (13, 34) 148 R
11. Cole Hamels (12, 33) 146


now strikeouts:

Rank Player (yrs, age) Strikeouts Throws
1. CC Sabathia (17, 36) 2831 L
2. Bartolo Colon (20, 44) 2445 R
3. Justin Verlander (13, 34) 2380 R
4. Felix Hernandez (13, 31) 2333 R
5. John Lackey (15, 38) 2285 R
6. Zack Greinke (14, 33) 2221 R
7. Cole Hamels (12, 33) 2206 L
8. Max Scherzer (10, 32) 2120 R
9. Clayton Kershaw (10, 29) 2100 L
10. James Shields (12, 35) 2060

 

[soxfan1468927]

250 wins is a LOT in todays game.

What other modern players are likely/have hit that 250 win plateau?

just to get some perspective.

Pettitte, Moyer, Mussina, Johnson, Glavine, and Clemens are the most recent players who have gotten there. Colon might if he just keeps pitching, he's 11 away.

Next after Sabathia and Colon is Lackey at 187, he won't get there. Greinke and Verlander have a shot.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

250 is the new 300, because we will never see 300 again.

I think we can see 300 again... Some pitchers do last longer than 15 seasons...

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I think we can see 300 again... Some pitchers do last longer than 15 seasons...

I dont think its the years as much as its starting pitchers rarely seeing the 7th inning anymore, nevermind the 8th or 9th, so a lot of these W/L are so dependent on other pitchers

 

[soxfan1468927]

I dont think its the years as much as its starting pitchers rarely seeing the 7th inning anymore, nevermind the 8th or 9th, so a lot of these W/L are so dependent on other pitchers

That's very true, here's a graph depicting the percentage of starts that end in a no decision